00:00
Thank you for listening to the Path to Power podcast. You can sign up to the Path to Power Plus to enjoy ad-free listening and to get early access and also to get our exclusive extra bonus edition once a week for those who subscribe to Path to Power podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by the Greenman Group, a European investment and operations group investing in and operating the essential sustainable assets for our future.
00:40
The Greenman Group focuses on three pillars, sustainable investing, real assets such as real estate and agriculture, as well as green energy infrastructure. What makes the group unique is its integrated model. It doesn't just finance these assets through its network of businesses, it builds, manages and optimises its pillars for the long term. This approach is designed to create durable value from the ground up. To learn more about investing in or being involved in the real assets shaping a sustainable future, you can visit the Greenman Group's website at thegreenman.group Hello and welcome to Path to Power, joined today by Brenda Power and John Deasy.
01:33
We've lots to talk about. We're going to talk later about the Ireland-Israel football internationals coming up over the next two Sundays and whether we should be playing in them or not. We're also going to talk about National ID Card. And we've other things. I want to talk about the cost of public transport and what delivers if we get time.
01:53
But also, are we letting down our young, particularly the under 25s? I want to start there because we have an awful lot of people, it seems at the moment, who are very unhappy in Ireland. And one of the focuses this week was findings of a National Youth Council of Ireland survey which said young adults are so disillusioned with the country that almost 7 out of 10 of them are considering emigration to give themselves a better quality of life.
02:19
And Brenda, you and I would both have children in that age category. I have three 18 to 24 year olds and two who are just older. So I know an awful lot about their concerns and the rest of it. And I'm always determined not to fall into the trap of saying, do you know what it was like for us back in our day? You know, and it's relevant, but it's actually almost irrelevant to the way that they are feeling about things. And I would have a lot of sympathy for them in relation to things like that they can't afford to rent, let alone buy.
02:53
And now that they have increasing fears about what sort of jobs are they going to have with the emergence of AI. And, you know, there have always been mental health issues as well that people have had to deal with. But I think they may have been exacerbated for the current generation by the use of mobile phones and the Internet. Where do you stand on all of this?
03:13
Well, exactly there, because I mean, as you say, my kids are a little bit older than yours, but I do have in that age group, the 18 to 24, of course. And one of my kids emigrated for a couple of years, came back from Australia this year.
03:31
pretty much everybody I know, Matt, in my friend circle has a kid in Australia or Canada or the UK or the US or wherever they can get to. And as you say, yeah, if you want to go back to the 80s and say, oh, well, it was very difficult for us. But at the same time, you could buy a house in the 80s. You could aspire to buying a house in your 20s if you had a job in Ireland. Emigration wasn't big an issue, I suppose, or as inevitable as it seems to be, or at least as kids today seem to believe that it is.
04:00
Immigration was utterly inevitable in the 1980s. I was thinking about this and writing a piece for the Irish Daily Mail for the weekend on this. You know, I remember people in my class in college who literally took the boat the morning after their final exams. And they took the boat because there wasn't Ryanair in 1987 and there weren't cheap flights. It was instead you took the boat. The potential for getting a job in the 1980s was really bad. In my final year in school in the Northmont in Cork in 1983, a teacher took a survey and there were 37 of us in the class.
04:33
That's how big class sizes were back in those days. Of the 37, there were 21 of us who had nobody in our house working. Father, mother, siblings, anything. That was the extent of unemployment. It was in the 20% or so for a large part of the 1980s. So immigration was a necessity rather than a lifestyle choice. And I'm saying that just for context, while at the same time I'm not in any way disagreeing with the disillusionment that the modern generation has.
05:02
But it was, but it was to the UK mainly, which wasn't Australia, wasn't Canada. And of course, you remember the visas or the green cards or the lottery system. And there was a clamour for those. I feel it's more of an, I suppose, maybe because flights are cheaper now, that it does seem more of an option, more of an accessible option, if you like, to go to Canada or Australia or whatever. Yeah.
05:27
And it's not just for lifestyle reasons. It is, of course, because the jobs aren't there. I agree with you completely. And I do remember the 80s. At the same time, you could afford to rent if you had a job. You could afford to buy if you had a job. That is not a realistic prospect now for anybody. The average age of house purchase now is 35. Like that's 10 years older than it would have been 40 years ago.
05:48
I made the mistake of telling my kids that I was 26 when I bought my first house.
05:52
Yes, so was I. And I remember telling them, this makes me sound like 100 years old, I remember being offered a small house at the time of the Liberties for £3,000. You know, I mean, that's like the price of a ticket to Australia now.
06:05
John.
06:06
Yeah, you know, I was 18 when I left Ireland in 1986. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to deliberately fall into that trap you talked about when you did your opening. I seem to have this figure in my head that unemployment was 17.5% in 1986.
06:23
I'm not going to say get a grip with regard to what the National Youth Council of Ireland are saying now, if you compare it to back then. Ireland was a wasteland in many respects back in 1986.
06:36
You really couldn't buy a house, actually, even back then with interest rates at 17, 18%.
06:42
It was far worse. I'm not going to say, you know, in my day we used to live in shoebox, but it was dreadful. It was dreadful because everyone had to leave. There was no employment for people.
06:55
for young people in that age group you're talking about.
06:59
I went back and I took a look at against that.
07:02
Went back and the National Youth Council of Ireland do this every year. This poll is not something new that they've come up with.
07:10
So I went back and I took a look at the numbers from last year and the year before. And so in 24 and 25, the interesting thing for me is when they asked the same questions they asked this year, the numbers were up this year compared to last year. Talking about moving abroad being something they'd look at, talking about being disadvantaged in the housing area. And the numbers were up significantly in some of the categories of the questions that they asked. So is there a rising discontent amongst the young people based on the poll that they did this year versus the others in previous years, I'd say the answer is yes.
07:46
And there's clear data based on a rolling poll they do every year.
07:51
But to even contemplate making a comparison between the way it is now and the way it was in the 80s, you can't do that. I know because I lived through it. And we all left.
08:03
And I was in Waterford. But the past is a different country. They do things differently. Yeah, I know.
08:07
But I'm just saying, you know, you're saying, oh, they were terrible now.
08:11
Compared to what it was 40 years ago, absolutely not. But they're not going to make that comparison. Do you know what?
08:16
Young people move abroad and they have the options to do it. They're better educated these days. You know what? I left when I was 18. It was the greatest day of my life, I have to say. And I mean, you know, I didn't like leaving my family, but it was wonderful. It was adventure. It was something new. It was different. And you're never going to take that out of young people. That's why they go to war. It's adventure. But, you know, when it comes to America, you know, I'd go again. I mean, I'd love to if I was let. All right. But young people...
08:47
Is it a bad thing for them to look to go abroad for 5, 10 years? It's not, in my opinion. And I think to gain those skills.
08:55
You know, people hear that if they go, they'll never come back. The vast majority of people do come back. I think the most recent CSO figures suggest in the year to April, 36,000 Irish people, Irish citizens went abroad, but 31,000 came back. So I ask a counter question.
09:12
Is it so bad that young people want to go abroad? And if you're correct and that most of them come back, I don't think it is actually. So, you know, there's, I would say, yes, okay, I get the numbers. They might be rising on a year-on-year basis, but having people go abroad, stay abroad, getting a skill, learning what the world is like and coming back isn't such a bad thing. Sorry, Brandy, you wanted to come in on that there.
09:36
you were saying that, sorry, John was just saying that it's not a bad thing for people to want to go away. And when you think about it, if you stopped your average 20-year-old in the street and said, would you ever think about emigrating? It'd be a strange young person who said, no, that would never cross my mind. And, you know, to an extent, thanks to the Ryanair revolution in international travel, A lot of what was once, you know, a sort of an American wake is now basically a commute. You can commute to London, you can, Australia obviously not.
10:07
But I mean, it's not as huge a decision as it would have been back in the 80s. As you say, you had to get the boat because a flight to London was like 500 euros.
10:16
And lots of my friends didn't come back. They never came back.
10:19
Yeah, and I mean, we all know people who went in the 80s and didn't come back. But it's a different sort of scenario now. And also, you know, when you look at the fact that we're still issuing unprecedented levels of work permits to non-EU nationals to work here. You wonder, is it the perception that there aren't jobs or there isn't sufficient work for young people here because we are training them in the wrong areas and we're not providing the right level of direction or guidance into the areas where there is work.
10:51
I mean, for example, there's still a stigma, I would say, about apprenticeships, which I know the government has attempted to tackle with various initiatives over the years, but there is. There's still this Irish obsession. Parents for that, Brenda. Yeah, parents, absolutely. Not the 18 to 20.
11:05
The reason they're not doing apprenticeships is because their parents are obsessed with them getting degrees, even if they're not necessarily suited to an academic life.
11:14
Yeah, absolutely. Whereas, you know, if you encourage your kid to be an electrician or a plumber, a carpenter, they'll never be out of work. I mean, you know, when you need an electrician or a plumber, you need them right now and you'll pay any money.
11:27
So, I mean, I just think that there is a sort of a misplaced emphasis on the college degree, which might yield no vocational benefits whatsoever.
11:37
The youth council, the specifics in their proposal to government, I think some of them are really decent. And one of them is abolishing this fee for applications for apprenticeships. Another one is getting rid of the sub-minimum wage for people of a certain age group.
11:55
And if you want to take specific concrete steps, there are quite a few in the proposal to government in the budget. So, yeah, I mean, even when it comes to transport, this idea of floating or they floated about having free public transport for people under the age of 25, I think is decent, something that should be looked at.
12:18
Probably better than giving 100 euro cards to go and see movies or cultural events.
12:24
I think it makes more sense what they're doing.
12:27
Look, we have serious problems in the construction industry. We have major problems when it comes to keeping doctors. Okay, so I don't think what the Youth Council is actually proposing is crazy in any respect. But when I look back and...
12:42
The proposals they've made before budget in the last few years, they've made the same ones again and again, but they've been ignored. If you want to keep young people in the country, take those very simple but concrete steps that they're proposing.
12:54
And also, it's not just about keeping young people happy. I think an awful lot of The older people who the political parties think of as the ones who are likely to vote, they're the ones who are seeing their kids not able to afford to move out of home. They're the ones who are worried about the prospects. So presumably older adults want things to be done for young adults as well because it's for everybody's benefit.
13:18
Yeah, in other words, to try to keep them at home as much as possible.
13:22
Well, to keep them in Ireland, but maybe that they can afford to go and live somewhere else.
13:26
I didn't mean at home in their box room bedrooms. Yeah, absolutely. I know I have a friend whose son is in Australia, is coming home for Christmas for the first time in years and is counting down the days. And I mean, you know, those days should be behind us, really, when children had to emigrate. out of necessity. And I know I take John's point, of course, it is a benefit and it is in terms of experience, in terms of sort of life experience, work experience, hugely beneficial to go and live someplace else.
13:57
But is it also the case that people, young people will be prepared to live with inferior accommodation in Australia or America or in England than they would expect to be at home. I mean, do they also realize necessarily that there's accommodation crises in nearly every country that they can go to and cost-living crises?
14:17
It's not just that, Matt. Practically speaking, it's harder to get into these countries and work.
14:22
The Australians are starting to really clamp down.
14:25
Australians are clamping down recently, but frankly, the U.S. labor market is pretty well shut out of it. So the choices that you might have had, right, even when the Donnelly and Morrison visas came in, they're no longer there. We are left with H-1Bs. Now, it's about five times harder to get a H-1B, which is a company sponsoring an individual, an American company. And five times harder than it was five years ago. It has become extremely difficult to get these H1Bs. We don't get any green cards anymore. We probably get 30 or 40 new green cards every year.
14:56
People don't understand. There's more green cards ads in Irish newspapers than there are actual green cards, right? When it comes to something like the specialized visas outside of the H1Bs, we are locked out. Frankly, there is very little opportunity for Irish people, graduates, to go to the United States any longer. When it comes to Australia, they are tightening up everything, whether it's tourists and work visas. So you're left with the likes of Canada.
15:27
I just want to say, Canada, maybe if it's going to be an associate member of the EU, then maybe this is going to be the great opportunity for us. But my point is this, even though 70 or 80% of young Irish people in a certain age group want to go abroad, they are going to be locked out of those countries that we traditionally would have gone to in the past. We seem to have an awful lot of unhappy people in Ireland at present.
15:51
And you wonder what has gone so wrong with Ireland, that so many young people will be negative about staying, that so many older people seem dissatisfied with their lot. At a time when we've never had more people at work... When we have about €170 billion in household deposits, where we have private wealth estimated at €1.4 trillion, the country, compared to what we've already been talking about from a generation ago, has transformed. And yet everybody seems unhappy and seems unhappy with their politicians.
16:24
They were unhappier than the 80s, believe me. I remember it well.
16:28
And I go back to what I said initially. Drink was cheaper then as well.
16:31
Oh, do you know what, Matt? It was great. I mean, I always remember basically driving through the streets in places like Dungarv and coming back after a year or two in America. It was a wasteland of young people. You know what? It's better now. And I mean, anyone who tries to tell me that basically we haven't moved on, right? They don't know what they're talking about. It was, in the west of Ireland in particular, and I'm from Waterford, I wasn't anywhere near the worst hit spots. It was dreadful. We've moved on as a society. We're richer, we're wealthier.
16:58
Yes, are there problems, but trying to make that comparison, I just don't buy it.
17:02
Are they first world problems, I guess? People only compare with what they know.
17:07
Young people in particular are not going to be in any way impressed by being told it was crap in the 80s.
17:13
Have they ever been happy in history? Come on. I know. I mean, they're discontented.
17:18
But you have to factor in the influence of social media, of course, which is designed to make you envious of other people's perfect lifestyles.
17:28
And, you know, you didn't have that in the 80s. So you didn't see other people's fantastic houses, holidays, cars, whatever. And now you do. It's rubbed in your face all the time. It is, in fact, designed to make people discontented with their lot. And yet, anytime you see a survey on international happiness levels, we're pretty high up actually on the list. So, you know, maybe budget time, we just do a bit more whinging.
17:51
One criticism I have, the Youth Council poll, the questions were a bit loaded. Okay, when you ask a question of a young person, are you disadvantaged when it comes to housing in Ireland? Come on, you know what the answer is going to be when the majority of them, you know, are you thinking about going abroad? I mean, they're very broad questions that, frankly, you knew the answer before you asked the question. You might as well throw in, do you like politicians? No, right? I mean...
18:17
They were getting a bit simplistic with regard to their broad questioning.
18:21
So I think you kind of have to take that poll with a pinch of salt too.
18:27
What about the poll in the Irish Times on Thursday? Now, I'm not a big fan of political opinion polls.
18:35
They now are so regular. The Business Post does one monthly. The Ireland Thinks for the Sunday Independent regularly. The Irish Times do them, I suppose, more sporadically, and maybe that's to a benefit or whatever. But I think the most recent one, Thursday Morning Published, would suggest this high level of disillusionment with the political parties and with the political system. And I do want to talk about things like energy credits and the cost of living and the rest of it. But first of all, John, what do you make of this belief that the three main political parties are increasingly unpopular, that Only a small majority of voters support those big three, with the remainder of voters, I think about 46%, spread amongst the rest.
19:21
I think that analysis that was printed in the Irish Times is faulty. It's very poor.
19:27
I think putting Sinn Féin in with Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, big mistake.
19:31
I think that the headline in the Times and the whole emphasis here was that there's been a massive fragmentation in Irish politics. There's been a fragmentation on the left side.
19:43
in Irish politics, but the right side is not seeing any massive fragmentation.
19:49
Is it not true the rise of Aint 2 in independent Ireland?
19:51
Do you know what? Basically, with Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, close to between 35% and 40%, they'll be delighted with themselves. And frankly, I don't see any angst, any concern, really, when it comes to that poll. I think the analysis was completely off. Where I see the fragmentation in this country is on the left-hand side. It is a left licorice all sorts right now. And there seems to be more and more splintering every year. Social Democrats are stealing. Sinn Féin votes left, right and centre.
20:23
And if I was Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, I'd be looking across at the left-hand side and saying, yeah, no problems there. There was far more competition on the right side of Irish politics 20, 30 years ago with the Progressive Democrats. There's far less now. And if I was this government, I would be delighted the way things are going. They have tons of money. And I said it to you a couple of weeks ago, and I think this poll kind of bears it out. If I was to make a judgment with regard to what will happen in three years time, I think they're in better position now, three years out from an election than they were back then.
20:56
As it happens, this is an opportunity to let you know, but the subscription edition this week is an interview with Siobhan Fenton, who has written a book from within Sinn Féin. She worked in the press room for Sinn Féin between 2020 and 2024 in the expectation that Sinn Féin would come to government. And it's particularly strong in relation to what went wrong for Sinn Féin from late 2023 onwards and why it was it didn't get into a position where it would be in power. And this is something else from the poll this morning, Brenda.
21:27
I don't know whether you've actually seen it, but just to fill you in, that For the actual party leadership's leaders, the ratings are all quite low, sort of popularity rates in the low 30s for nearly all of them. So we don't seem to have a major political figure as well who seems to command a great degree of confidence in the country.
21:48
Yeah, I think that's true. And just coming back to John's point there, I think between now and the next election, you will see a move further to the right from Sinn Féin in order to tee themselves up for a potential coalition with, say, Fine Gael. Remember those very warm comments recently comparing who Simon Harris was compared to Michael Collins or whatever in relation to...
22:16
his comments on a United Ireland.
22:19
Do you remember that Michael Collins split from sort of what you might call historical Sinn Féin? Fine Gael are never going to go into a coalition with Sinn Féin.
22:27
And their future rests on saying that again and again. There's absolutely zero chance of them ever doing that, I'm afraid.
22:33
And Michal Martin keeps saying it for Fianna Fáil, but there are others in Fianna Fáil who would consider it.
22:38
Yeah, they would. But I mean, as you say, there is no, I think there's a level of stagnation in terms of the leadership of the three main parties that we really, there's nobody to get excited about. There's nobody, there's no strong sort of decisive decision. polarising figure, if you like, in any of the three parties.
23:01
I think I remember reading this a while ago that Sinn Féin suffer from the perception that, you know, they've been around so long, they might as well have been in power because they've been talking and they've been posturing and they have been pontificating for so long that the sense is they've had their moment and they did nothing and they never delivered on it. And maybe it's time for a change in leadership in...
23:24
Yeah, I've got to agree with that. The figures off the top of my head, Michal was 34, Harris 31. And here's the really interesting thing is Mary Lou McDonald, leader of the main opposition party, exactly at 31, just like Harris. So if I'm Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil and I'm looking at that number, I'm saying we have nothing to worry about with this one. And basically she is past her sell-by date. She is not gaining any traction. within the public, and it's actually just going to get worse. And I'm afraid you have a shelf life in politics to make an impact.
23:55
She hasn't done it. So what they're doing is they're flipping over to the great white hope, which is Social Democrats and Holly Cairns. That's what's happening here.
24:05
And ultimately, though, we're going to be left in a time of relative wealth in this country, we're going to be left with one question, and that is, Can we trust these people with the economics of the country? And do we just stay with stability, the economy and what we have? And do you know what the answer? I think I think I can answer that already. And people are just going to lapse over to Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael. They're not prepared to take a chance on the left yet in this country.
24:34
I do not believe that the support for Holly Cairns will translate into votes at the next election. I don't believe it.
24:39
Yeah, you may not. Okay, but are people going to be fed up with Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, you say, stability, if they don't deal with things like the increased cost of heating your home in the winter, the increased prices for petrol and diesel? And yes, people know that these are as a result of Trump's madness in the Middle East and international issues. But the reality is they also know that the price you pay for all of these products is also largely influenced by the amount of tax that the government levies on them, a combination of excise duties, VAT and carbon taxes.
25:19
About half the price of your petrol and diesel when it was fully taxed went to the government. That, you know, in your home heating bill, that a good 10-12% of the price of your home heating oil is going in carbon tax. So how does the government deal with that? I know we have all of these arguments that we shouldn't be spending this money, that you can't protect the consumer from everything. But isn't that the job of government? And if the government isn't seen to do enough in relation to these basic things that people need, won't people say, well, give the others a chance?
25:54
I don't know that they'll say we'll give the others a chance. I think, though, the onus is on the government to do something about it. I mean, we have a rainy day fund. This is as close to a rainy day as we've seen for a while.
26:06
I think there is a suggestion that the carbon tax will be taken off home heating fuel in the budget.
26:13
Sinn Féin has been suggesting that vociferously on eight occasions during the year in the Dáil.
26:17
And it was reported on Thursday that that is actually a runner now. And that would reduce the cost of 1,000 litres by almost €200. So that would make a difference.
26:27
But the price has gone up, I think, by something like 88% over the last year. €200 would make a difference, but people would still be paying an awful lot more than they were paying... earlier in the year or last year for their home heating oil. And then the question becomes, if you help people with their home heating oil, 700,000 homes or whatever, people who are heating by gas or by electricity will be going, well, why don't you give us the energy credits again? Because you brought them in because of a crisis in 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine. We have another crisis now.
26:57
Give us our money.
26:58
The question you asked was, basically, is the cost of living issue enough for people to change over en masse and flip to the left?
27:06
No, is the answer, right? Not yet. I mean, is there enough concern or pain out there for people to move on block against what is, you know, this right-sided government to the left? No, it isn't. There are plenty of people, and it's the reason why Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael are still marking 35% to 40% in polls. There are plenty of people who are doing well in this country. and they are doing very well. There is pain. There's obvious pain with regard to the cost of living when it comes to something like home heating oil.
27:41
But the other side of it is there are tons of people in the country who are doing well. Money's moving in this country, plenty of it.
27:48
That's why restaurants are full. It's why concert tickets get sold out.
27:51
There is enough going on in this country to subsist, Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael, quite happily. And when they look at this in the big picture, and they look at a poll like this, there's no problem. I don't see a huge problem here whatsoever politically. And, you know, it's, yes, you're always, the one piece of analysis I, you know, I did agree with when it came to the Times was government cannot do everything for you. And Irish people know that too. They're not thick.
28:22
They understand that it wouldn't be much better if the other crowd were in.
28:25
And they're hedging their bets on the Conservatives right now, as opposed to the left. And I don't see any change in that occurring. I suspect that some of those who support Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, even if they're not particularly happy with all they're getting, or even those who feel that they don't need it, what often people don't like is somebody else to be getting something that you're not getting. That's why I think the energy credits brought in went to everybody. They even went to people who didn't need it because the government was afraid of the likely reaction of those who didn't need it, saying, well, we don't need it, but why should we not be getting something if they're getting it?
28:58
The worst example of that is everything they've done with the fuel.
29:03
It's not targeted. So we're spending, could be spending, close to $2 billion, right? Fairly soon.
29:10
on stuff that is not targeted. And in many cases, that money is going to people who can afford it. They don't need a break when it comes to diesel and petrol. Now, there are others who do, definitely. We know that. But the crazy part about this, all of the cuts when it comes to cuts to fuel, whether it's agricultural contractors to farmers, etc., is many of them do not actually need the break. And it is the worst example of a non-targeted benefit that the government has been doing.
29:42
At the moment, we can afford it, Cathy. I mean, I know that the budget is going to come along with its £8.5 billion package, or the envelope, as they set out in the summary economic statement, which is going to be £1.5 billion on income tax measures, largely income tax, but tax measures, £7 billion on spending. When it comes to spending, there's two types of spending in that. There's current spending, there's capital spending. We now essentially have a third category of spending beyond that, sort of not quite off balance sheet like we used to have in the past, but what I'd call contingency spending, using sort of what could be in the rainy day funds, but it's essentially the budget surplus that we have from the corporation tax revenues and just using that on a one-off basis for a year.
30:28
It could be $2 billion next year because... I don't see any way that they're going to be able to return the excise duties and petrol and diesel from November onwards as they planned. That's going to continue and for most of next year. But I suppose they'll argue on the basis of a contingency for one year and after that it'll stop. Yeah. John Smirking.
30:46
Yeah, look, I know what Simon Harris is thinking about right now, and it's none of that. Basically, he's trying to figure out how I can gain a benefit for Fine Gael out of this budget. That's all he's thinking about.
30:58
When it comes to country versus party, Harris will go party every time, okay? And his savings and investment accounts, it's got his face on it. And that's all he's interested in.
31:09
And you can see... He's a bit like Donald Trump putting his picture on the $20 bill. There might be a Simon Harris.
31:16
He actually might be a bit more gifted, a bit smarter.
31:20
I can see the leaflet already. I mean, this is his chance to put his name and Fine Gael's name on something. So if you get, okay, it's a risk involved, okay.
31:29
It's going to be toned down if you do it at the time of the budget.
31:32
Yeah, but there's risk in everything, right? But it's his chance. He understands that in three years' time, there's a leaflet coming through the door and you actually sign up to one of these things and you gain a bit of money, you're going to get the benefit politically. The other thing he has a chance of doing is putting his face on income tax reductions. Now, I defy anyone to tell me if there is a reduction in home heating oil cost built into this budget. In six months' time, who is responsible for that? I defy anyone to tell me, basically, if the stamp duty is cut on housing, who would be responsible for that?
32:07
What Harris does is he looks through the lens of every one of these items and takes a look at the matrix of of the individuals who votes for Fine Gael and he compares and contrasts. And he basically accentuates and he emphasizes the ones that basically he thinks he will get a political benefit from. That's what he is about and he does it well. And to think that this is a balanced for the country, for the benefit of the population, if that's the... The primary kind of goal here, it's not.
32:39
For him, it is about putting his face on the measures he can and that's it.
32:46
I'm a little bit sort of dubious about this because the calculations now are suggesting, the budget comes on Tuesday week and we get the figures, but that the income tax benefit to a lot of people could be about a 10 or a week. This is it, yeah. A tenner a week isn't going to actually do much for you for the increased price of your petrol or diesel.
33:06
It's about a year-on-year reputation to cut your taxes. That's what he's at. So in three years' time, he'll be doing the same thing. Well, it might not be as big as he'd hoped, but actually he's going to actually brand his name on any tax reduction that you're going to get. That's what he's about.
33:19
Well, maybe he's like Donald Trump and basically his view is that if it's good for Fine Gael, it's good for the country. You know, that is what is good for Fine Gael.
33:29
He's actually asking the question, do you believe that what's good for Fine Gael is good for the country and he's willing to pay you for the right answer? There's a difference.
33:39
Like Donald Trump's five grand bribe.
33:43
Five grand bribe which will only be paid if they win midterms, which won't happen. Well, it's not a bribe. He's playing politics, you know, cleverly. Every politician, if you bring it down to its most micro level, the good ones understand how many votes come out of a townland. They know how many votes they get out of a parish. On a macro level, Harris will view every item in the budget as to how many votes he can get out of that one particular item. That's what he is about. That's what he does really well. So if it's stamp duty, if it's savings accounts, if it's income tax, he will have calculated who that benefits most and where the impact will be for Fine Gael.
34:22
That's why he has targeted income tax, savings and investments accounts for people with money at his constituency.
34:29
But John, is it not the case, though, that if having banged on about people who get up early and the squeezed middle and the hardworking people promising meaningful tax cuts, if it amounts to a tenner a week, is that not more likely? Well, he might surprise you. We'll see what he says.
34:44
He might surprise you. For all, Jack, on the other hand, Jack Chambers, is basically doing the poor mouth and he's driving his own backbenchers absolutely cracked. Right now, he's with the fiscal council lads, you know, and it's a lonely station telling everybody we have to, you know, tighten our belts, etc. And the Fianna Fáil backbenchers are looking at Harris and they're looking at Chambers and they're going, you know what? Your man did well out of this, Harris. And Chambers ain't giving us any victories here. And he needs to be clever, more clever than Harris when it comes to the initial few months before a budget and branding the individual items just like Harris has.
35:21
We need to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about national ID cards because the public services card may be turning a bit into that. I also want to bring up the public transport fare increases and the Ireland-Israel football internationals. So we'll talk about those with Brenda Power and John Deasy after this break. Today's episode is brought to you by The Greenman Group. It's answering a critical question, how to invest in a sustainable future in real, tangible terms. Its answer lies in three areas – the energy transition, the places we live and shop, and the future of our food supply.
35:57
The Greenman Group's strategy is to own and operate the physical infrastructure in these sectors, from solar energy generation and EV charging, to agricultural projects and grocery-anchored real estate. By building, managing and optimising these areas via its investment and operational businesses, the group aims to build resilience and deliver long-term value. Explore its approach at thegreenman.group Welcome back. Brenda Power, John Deasy have stayed with us.
36:28
The public services card is going to get photographs, I think, put on it, isn't it? It has photographs. It has photographs. Date of birth. Date of birth. Which means that it becomes essentially a quasi-national ID card. Do you have any problems with that, Brenda? I don't.
36:44
I don't really know what the issue with this is. I mean, when you consider how much of our data is already available to so many different agencies, national ID cards are pretty common across Europe. I don't really see what the objection to it is. You already have your photograph on it. The argument is that this will then allow you to use it as an ID card in the same way that you use your driver's license or your passport or whatever.
37:14
I don't really know. I mean, it seems a little bit disingenuous to say, oh, well, you know, this is the big state again, you know, collating our information and our activities. But sure, everything you do, everywhere you go, your data is already accessible.
37:30
I don't have a huge problem with it myself.
37:33
The thing that popped out of me when I read about the card was that 70% of people's facial recognition was already available to the big state, as you say. And is that a good thing or a bad thing?
37:49
I agree. I actually don't think it's a bad thing. I think there is a bigger issue here, a bigger debate on that. And I'll give you an example. It has to do with ring doorbells. And in some countries, they're using them to track.
38:04
lost pets and basically a system where recognition would be used and obviously people have to allow for their data that is generated from the ring doorbell.
38:19
But it's only a matter of time before somebody is asking the question, well, all of these, for example, ring doorbells, are they connected to our criminal justice system? And can they be used for tracking and identifying criminals? and civil libertarians are going to go absolutely cracked.
38:36
But as we'll say CCTV, as we know it now, is becoming redundant, and there is better technology, and far more of these cameras available to people, particularly in urban areas, should we allow them, the Gardaí, should we allow that data for them to access...
38:56
the camera visions or the vision and the facial recognition data that they capture? And the answer is absolutely. And do I believe that Irish people think that the Gardaí, if it helped them to capture criminals, to actually keep a curb on crime, that it would be a good thing? I think a majority of people in this country would say yes. So the opposition...
39:20
Comments in the Dáil yesterday when Kaliri announced the public ID card, they were pretty weak, I have to say.
39:27
They were kind of making comments about it, but I didn't really see anybody come out and say, well, we're totally against this.
39:35
I really don't see a problem.
39:36
Well, actually, he said that people can use the card as their own volition and purely on a voluntary basis as a form of identity. Because the public service card is issued to individuals to allow them access a range of public services, including social welfare payments. It includes their name, signature, photograph and their PPSN. And only public sector bodies specified in law can request the card as a form of identity. And the minister said if any other institution does so, such as a bank, a credit union or utility company, they're currently guilty of an offence.
40:12
But they do ask you for some ID. They often ask you for your passport.
40:16
Actually, can I just bring up a bugbear of mine here? Sorry, just as a slight weave, as Marianne and myself say. But if you go to a lot of the American multinationals, to their campuses, they require you to produce either your driver's license or your passport to gain admission. I've had this in Microsoft recently and previously in Google. And I actually found it really objectionable, the idea that if I go, I know it's their own company headquarters or whatever, but to be asked to produce my passport in my own country to gain admission to somewhere, you don't have a problem with that, John.
40:54
I don't. It's a very American sensibility. And, you know, ID is something that was developed. And the production of ID is something Americans have done for many, many decades. It's something that is pro forma. It's regular. It's not a big deal. You walk into a bar, even if you're 40 or 50 years old, they'll ID you. And I think that they brought it to an obvious security level. No, it's not something that I'm surprised at whatsoever.
41:21
But you're right, Brendan, that, you know, we give away so much information. We're worried about left facial recognition by the state, but essentially we give it away on our mobile phone or on our laptops all the time.
41:31
But is that a bad thing? No, no, the question is, is that a bad thing? And it's not a bad thing if it helps the Gardaí catch people and prevent crime. And frankly, I think if the question was asked of the Irish population generally, would it be a good thing if it was made available to the Gardaí through things like ring doorbells? I think most people would say absolutely. They understand the guards can't do everything. And if it gave them an edge...
41:57
when it comes to tackling crime, I think they say yes.
41:59
They do. The question is, though, should the Gardaí be entitled to subpoena your ring doorbell footage or to demand it with a warrant? I imagine they could, even at present. I know on our street, one of our neighbours circulated on the WhatsApp group a ring doorbell image of a guy standing outside his house at one o'clock in the morning, clearly holding housebreaking equipment.
42:24
I would very much hope that he shares that image with the local Gardaí. And as you say, John, I don't think most people would have a problem with that. I suppose there could be a privacy issue if they demanded everybody on the streets footage then as a result of that.
42:40
Here's a mad idea. Basically, incentivize people to actually buy these things. And actually, if the government was to actually talk to a company and come to a deal with them, incentivize people, homeowners, to put a ring doorbell on their house, and if the population did that collectively, or at least a very good portion of it, would it prevent crime and would it help catch criminals? Yes is the answer.
43:04
You would also be outsourcing it to the likes of your Amazons and the various other companies who run these doorbell services.
43:10
No, I'm talking about the data captured by them. Yeah, the data. They're the ones who capture them. Well, you know, I think that there are choices you have to make with regard to crime in this country. And if it lessens crime and if it curbs it, I don't have a problem with that.
43:22
Would it drive the Civil Liberties Brigade up the wall?
43:26
I couldn't care less, right?
43:30
I think most people couldn't, actually. Yeah.
43:33
Okay, I don't have one of these. I'm under pressure to have one at home and I just don't like, I don't like these for us. I don't like having one of these Amazon speakers or anything like that or doorbells or any of those things. I have all of the above.
43:47
And I love it when I was away on holidays recently to be able to say to somebody at the door, can you just leave that package there? Thanks very much.
43:53
I mean, that's a great sense of security when you're not at home and they don't know.
43:58
It's a deterrent. I mean, it's a very basic deterrent. If a criminal sees a ring doorbell and you have that option whereby you can actually look back in the footage, it is a deterrent. Now, if you had that multiplied by a million, right, does it act as a massive deterrent for crime? I think it does.
44:20
Is it going to drive those civil libertarians cracked? Yes. Do I care? That's a plus.
44:26
That's a plus.
44:28
Right. Okay. Okay. Let's move on to public transport. Public transport was debated in the Noructus Committee this week because they're claiming the average cost of public transport is going up by 15%. I know the leap card that I use, I'm fortunate that I don't have a long distance to travel. The price is going up 33% for me.
44:52
But that said, I realise it's very good value by comparison with taking a taxi or driving a car or whatever. But for other people who have longer distances to travel, I think this increase is going to be very, very sore to take. People who have to commute to maybe our cities using trains, public transport, they have annual commuter tickets going up very, very sizable amounts.
45:18
And also the fact is that is public transport, sufficiently attractive. But does it make sense as well, Brenda, that if you have these ambitions and aspirations, the state, for environmental reasons, to dramatically increase the use of public transport to make it more expensive?
45:36
It seems totally counterproductive. I mean, it really does, especially when you consider that a lot of students, for instance, would have to be commuting by train and bus because they can't afford accommodation. And now their fares are going up by 15%.
45:49
I mean, I think I saw something like a figure of, was it 6,000 complaints to Transport for Ireland about the bus service between 2024 and 2025?
45:57
I suspect most people don't bother making complaints. I mean, there's a piece by Jennifer O'Connell in the Irish Times and she was describing a massive increase in the cost of coming from Waterford three times a week going back. And also all of the things she's witnessed on the red line on the Lewis. I suspect the vast majority of people who witness stuff on the red line on the Lewis, which is different to the green line for the Lewis, and I've seen it myself, never register a complaint.
46:25
Exactly. So you can take that 6,000 as a small fraction. of the people who have witnessed antisocial behaviour or been ghosted by a bus that suddenly disappears off the schedule. I mean, you cannot possibly charge more for service that is not meeting the needs of the public. I still cannot believe that in 2026 you cannot tap a credit card on a bus in Ireland. And coming back to the airport, you have to feel sorry for tourists who go out and try and board a bus and are told only you need to go back in the terminal and buy a leap card at a news agent in there because the bus driver will not take your card.
47:05
I mean, charity collectors in the streets have tap cards now that you can make contribution to. You still can't do it on a bus. It is absolutely absurd. And I mean, I do think too that the airport transit situation is still a national disgrace. The fact that there is no reliable transport to and from the airport. Apparently, in a recent survey, Dublin Airport came out as the second most stressful airport in the world after Singapore. And I would say one of the reasons is access.
47:32
I have an issue with the cost of the Metrolink versus public transport generally in the country and the kind of or the lack of investment going into it over the next 10 years as planned.
47:42
And I wonder, really, you know, everyone's for better links to wherever, whether it's at the airport or whatever.
47:51
And let's not forget there are five stops beyond the airport for the Metrolink.
47:54
I just wonder if people were given the choice and like massively improving, you know, what Brenda's talking about when it comes to security and Lewis, train services like that article that was written in The Times, etc. Buses, you know, that don't show up. And that money was pumped into, and SNES is pumped into the general public transport system in this country versus the 17, is it 17?
48:16
17 million?
48:17
Billion? Billion. I think most people would say scrap it and put it into public transport around the country and make it a first world public transport system. Maybe you can do both. No, well, maybe, but I think it's, I think this Metrolink thing needs, I think it's a bit simplistic. You know, it sounds good. Politically, it's easy to sell.
48:41
Good for Dublinites, right?
48:44
I'm not sure it's the best use of money when it comes to public transport. When you look at the entire system we have in the country and the lack of investment that has been put into it over the last 10 or 15 years, and now they're talking about bumping up the prices for everything.
49:00
So, yeah, I've got doubts about whether or not that 17 billion is where the money should go.
49:06
And they say that 70 million, which this increase will raise, will go into partly into funding the Metrolink. They will spend that in a week on consultancy fees. I mean, that money will go nowhere on that 70 billion fee. And I mean, Matt, I think we can all resign ourselves in this studio. I don't know about Tom, but the rest of us to never, ever being able to get a metro to the airport in our lifetimes.
49:31
I have no optimism with regard to that.
49:34
I was planning on living another 30 years personally. Do you mind me travelling?
49:39
I walked home from Charlemagne last night, having got off to Lewis there, just to see how much time it would take. Looking forward to in the future being able to go down, walk down there, get my metro out of the airport, if we're still being able to afford to fly away.
49:55
Okay.
49:56
If you can get your rollator onto it at that stage, you'll probably be in your 80s, Matt.
50:02
Okay, well, one thing I want to finish off with, and something that I've written about for the Business Post for the weekend, but which is already up on the Business Post website, which is the football match, the first of the two football matches that Ireland has to play against Israel because we have the misfortune of being drawn against Israel in the UEFA Nations League.
50:24
The FAI did attempt last year to have Israel suspended for various breaches of UEFA's Articles of Association, not because of the bigger issues in relation to genocide in Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank, But the game is going ahead. The Ireland manager, Haimer Halgrimson, made comments last week about genocide, which the Israeli FA fought back against.
50:56
And Taoiseach Mian Martin in New York this week came to the defence of Haimer Halgrimson and what he said, pointing out that Antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General, had made those same points about what was happening in Gaza, been a genocide. And, Jonas, I've also pointed out, you know, sometimes the easy option taken in criticizing Ireland is to say we're anti-Semitic and all the rest of it. But there are many, many Israeli people, including many who previous members of governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu.
51:29
And members of the military. And members of the military who say in particular what's happening in the West Bank at present, leaving Gaza aside, is actually...
51:38
ethnic cleansing and genocide yeah you won't get an argument from me but where you will is your argument about the game and you know which I believe shouldn't be going ahead yeah that's my point I think you've asked me this before you keep politics out of sport and it's a slippery path you're going on there if you start picking out targets and not playing games we don't play Russia Well, do you know what, Matt? I can go back in history and, you know, ask you the question about, you know, what other countries have done.
52:08
You know, why don't we play Belgium? Why don't we boycott Belgium?
52:12
Because of what it did in the Congo. About 10 million people. Yeah.
52:16
You know, keep going. I mean... You know, Donald Trump was here a couple of weeks ago. The U.S. just did a deal with Israel for 60,000 more one-ton bombs. 2.4 billion worth of weapons. These are the ones that basically they knocked the buildings down within Gaza. We had the red carpet out for Donald Trump.
52:34
Sorry, who killed 140 schoolgirls in Iran earlier in this year.
52:39
But my point is, should we have played the U.S. and the Irish women's team, should we have played the U.S. a couple of weeks ago in rugby?
52:46
Yeah.
52:47
Hang on. I mean, basically, should we play Belgium?
52:50
You know, a million and a half people, two million people died in the Irish famine. Should we be playing England? I mean... Those are history. Now, that's from history. Now, hang on a second. There's a difference between what is happening now, John. I just gave you the US example, okay?
53:02
Yeah.
53:03
All right. So, do we kind of have it both ways in this country? I mean, I look at this and I look at what happened in Donald Trump when he came here. Catherine Conley, did she say a whole lot? Not a whole lot, to be honest. Her sister was on about flattening.
53:14
She gave a book of poetry to him that if he reads, might change his mind about things.
53:18
This is the woman who kind of rested her career on basically the imperialism of America and calling him a bully, etc. She didn't say a whole lot. And ultimately, are we a bit preachy in Ireland, frankly? A bit? A bit preachy, right? When it comes down to it, there's one thing that excites us more in Ireland than giving out about U.S. presidents, and that is their money, right? And when it comes down to it, it's the bottom line. And we take the money every time, and we do. But we like preaching about this stuff, right? And we had our chance when Donald Trump came. What did Micheál Martin do? Not much when it came to Gaza.
53:50
What did Connolly do? Not much, right? And do you know what? When it comes to, I listened and read what the opposition had to say in the Dáil.
53:59
Pierce Doherty really stood out. We, you know, we're not going to tell you, the players, to boycott this game.
54:08
But you have to make your own mind up based on what's happening in Gaza. And I'm not minimizing the horror of that. But then in his same breath, he's saying, it's terrible that these players are being put under pressure. Well, when you open your gob like that, Pierce, you're putting them under pressure. Yeah, I think it's a bit rich for politicians getting involved in politics like this. You go down a slippery slope if you start picking targets and you link sport to politics.
54:34
But hold on, an Irish government as recently as 1999, of which Michal Martin was part, stopped a Yugoslav or Serbian football team coming to play in Dublin, sorry, with Serbia... because of what was happening in Kosovo, who we're playing tonight. Now, a number of months later, they did come because the political situation had changed. But the government was willing back then to say, no, we're not allowing the Serbians into the country.
54:59
Helen Mackenzie, you know, you mentioned New York. She was there. She was asked, oh, my God. You know what? She didn't even get an answer out of her. Right. I mean, basically.
55:06
Well, I think, didn't she say she wants other countries to do what we've done in the Occupy Territories, Bill? I'm talking about the sport.
55:11
I'm talking about the game. Right. Nothing. Right. Absolutely nothing. I mean, she was asked a number of questions about, I mean, it was about as watery as stuff as I've ever heard in my entire life.
55:21
It's not the type of diplomacy required of him.
55:23
Do you know what? There's weak and there's weak. I mean, she was asked a question. She said it was unlikely that Benjamin Netanyahu would be arrested when it comes to New York.
55:35
There's no chance of him being arrested. There's more chance that Helen McEntee would be arrested for being a really bad minister for justice in New York than Benjamin Netanyahu being arrested, frankly. It's absurd stuff, right?
55:50
They have no opinion. They want it to all go away.
55:55
At least, if you have an opinion with regard to linking sport and politics, say it, okay? But, I don't know, they don't seem like they...
56:05
I think we're extremely hypocritical in the way that we select the targets that we will get exercised about. I mean, there wasn't a single peep of protest to the Irish cricket team playing, voluntarily playing Afghanistan last month, where women are treated worse than battery chickens. It is the most extreme humanitarian crisis in the world at the moment, as far as I can see, the gender apartheid in Afghanistan. Not a word of protest. I listened to somebody from Irish Sport for Palestine talking about the letter they have written to the Irish footballers.
56:41
Some of them young players about to get their first cap for Ireland saying, you know, oh, we're not putting pressure on them. They are totally putting pressure on them. Where was your indignation when we played? England wouldn't play them. South Africa wouldn't play them. Australia wouldn't play them. New Zealand wouldn't play them. The great humanitarians in Ireland had absolutely no difficulties.
56:59
Two things in relation to that. One is that there was actually quite a significant debate within cricket. And a lot of people were upset within cricket about going ahead and playing those games. But secondly, I suppose the reason it didn't become an issue of great national debate was because cricket is very much a minority sport that only a small number of people play. And I'm not excusing, I don't believe they should have played Afghanistan. I think that shouldn't have happened either. But what I think, in this case, football is, despite the fact that GAA represents our national sports, the real national team, despite the advances made by rugby in recent years, is the football team.
57:39
The football team gets mass support.
57:42
Should we, should our coach have kind of said anything? I wonder.
57:46
I say he wishes he hadn't said anything.
57:48
Listen, good guy, good coach, right? But does there need to be a more rigorous protocol with regard to our coaching staff? when it comes to this stuff. I'm guessing this man was pestered, right? It was 20 minutes into his interview. And he peppered with questions again and again about this stuff. And he eventually kind of said...
58:08
But that's why the government should have taken it out of his hands.
58:10
He said something that was decent. It was something that was his opinion. But I would have to say...
58:17
you'd be better off not, right? There's no winning there. And what he's done is basically he's put his team under the spotlight, right? And I don't blame him for answering that question whatsoever, but I do think the FAI needs to actually step in here and put together a protocol going forward And I understand that there are mandatory press conferences and statements you need to give after these games or before some of these games. But I do believe stay out of it. What's happened here is basically now the spotlight has gone on his players unwittingly.
58:50
And politicians are loading up here, particularly in the Dáil. And some of them are saying, you should not play.
58:57
And frankly, it's turned into a mess. And I think unwittingly, you know, there was a catalyst there when he answered that question, like I said, decently. But going forward, there needs to be change there.
59:08
Look, I'm sympathetic to a lot of what you say. And I could add other examples in, not in a sporting context, but even the way we deal with China, when you consider what's happened with the Uyghur people there. When Xi Jinping came to Ireland in 2014, when various Irish delegations have gone over the years, you know, we have ignored human rights abuses in China because we're doing business in China. This happens all of the time. I fully understand that. But look, look at what's happening at the moment in Gaza.
59:39
You said it yourself. There's no argument. The effect of what has been done to Gaza is that they might as well have dropped nuclear bombs on Gaza for all of the damage. It is the worst over.
59:49
I'm not sure it is.
59:51
No, it may not. They want to use this. They want to drive everyone into the sea. They want to eradicate Gaza. And that's why I just think that, you know, you have to at times stand up and support for people. You maybe can't do it all the time. Maybe, yes, you've been pragmatic in how you deal with Trump and it's hypocritical and the rest of it. But when there are opportunities at times, I think you do have to draw a line and say, you know what, it's only a football match. It's only three points towards qualification for a tournament or six points over two games.
60:23
They'll probably lose the two games anyway, despite all the things and get no points out of it. You just say, look, no, we just stand. And it's also in support of the minority in Israel who realize that there's an enormous damage been done to this country. You even see in the United States at the moment how support for Israel is being diluted, which has never really happened in recent decades.
60:49
What Netanyahu is doing is actually counterproductive for Israel's security and safety for the future.
60:55
Did we not have an option to pull out of the Nations League altogether then, as we've done with the Eurovision? No, not really. Why not?
61:01
No, not really.
61:03
Because then you're pulling out of everything. UEFA will just suspend you and then there's going to be no national team.
61:09
It just seems to me that we have taken a position that is not being supported widely. I mean, Austria is playing tonight.
61:15
Austria is playing tonight.
61:17
I mean, they have history. Of course, they do.
61:19
There's a complicated history involved there that basically we don't have. That is raw still to this day. And a lot of European countries do.
61:28
As of guilt, you can understand all that. But a lot of what Israel is doing bears extraordinary parallels with what Jewish people experienced during the Holocaust.
61:40
Yeah.
61:41
Okay. That's a bit of a down low finish to finish, isn't it? But still.
61:45
But still, I do think, you know, the coverage of the Iranian ambassador holding up pictures of the 185 schoolchildren who were killed by an American bomb when his own regime, monstrous regime, murdered up to 50,000 of his own young people in January and February. We have an Iranian ambassador installed in this country. So, I mean, I do believe that there's a level of anti-Semitism behind our response.
62:08
Not at the official level.
62:10
I don't think. Brenda, there will always be some people, individuals, who are anti-Semitic. But I genuinely think that the vast majority of people at the position that they're taking in relation to Gaza... and the West Bank is nothing to do with disliking or hating Jewish people or Israel. I think it's just feeling that it's a human rights issue that they feel drawn to.
62:36
Just on that point, America's changing. That's the reality. And even conservative Republicans are taking a step back when they look at what's happening in Gaza right now. They're changing their opinions. Conservative electorates throughout, in states throughout America, are changing when it comes to Israel. They know that Trump was played. They've got themselves into a quagmire, but they're also horrified by what they see and what they are propping up effectively militarily and financially. And I think you're right.
63:07
And I think the test is America with regard to a country that is very acute to anti-Semitism, but they're changing. It's not about anti-Semitism there. It's about pure horror. you know, disgust at what they're seeing.
63:23
So, okay. John D.C., Brenda Power, thank you both for being with us. Tom McAuliffe and so on, Aidan Power doing production. As I said, Siobhan Fenton, formerly of Sinn Féin, is the subscription edition this week. If you missed it, Gary Murphy did a great piece with us about his Brian Cowan book last week, if you want to catch up on that, in the subscription edition as well. And Marion McKeown and Pat De Power America. Until next week, from me, Matt Cooper, thank you for being with us.
